Episode Forty-Four: How to write health conditions in fiction with sensitivity
For our 44th episode, I’m doing something special - my first interview episode!!
This week, I’m sharing a great conversation with Barbra Rodriguez an editor, book coach, and experienced health writer.
We talked all about writing fictional characters who have diverse health statuses, especially for those of us who write or work with historical fiction.
You’ll learn how to approach the research phase, how to be sensitive to modern understandings of medical conditions while writing accurate historical fiction, and more!
If you enjoyed this interview and want to hear more from Barbra you can check out her website here.
Want to learn more about writing characters with varied health conditions? You can check out Barbra’s free guide to selecting trustworthy online and other health-information resources here!
Thanks for listening, keep writing, and keep getting better one word at a time!
You can listen to this episode in your favorite podcast player here or watch on YouTube here.
Thanks for listening, keep writing, and keep getting better one word at a time!
Transcript
Please note: This transcript is automatically generated and has not been edited.
Olivia (00:00)
Welcome to episode 44 of the Better Writer Podcast. Fun fact about me, I am slightly obsessed with the number four, so I had to celebrate the 44th episode with something special. And that is the very first interview that I have ever hosted on this podcast. I am so excited for you to hear this conversation because it is a topic that is very near and dear to my heart. If you know me, you know that I am a proponent of writing diversity. Whether that is in terms of race or gender or beliefs,
I think it is so important for us as writers to create worlds and stories and settings that represent the diversity of our world, even if you're writing a book that takes place in an imaginary place that could never exist. And today I am interviewing Barbra Rodriguez, who is a book coach, a health writer, and just an accomplished, amazing person who is going to talk all about writing characters who have health issues. We are going to talk about how to do your research properly.
We're going to talk about how to handle health issues when you're writing historical fiction. And perhaps the historical understanding of a condition has not aged well in our modern times. So it is a great conversation. I am so excited for you to learn from Barbra. And I hope you enjoy this interview. Thank you so much for listening to the Better Writer Podcast. Let's get into the show.
Olivia (01:40)
We are so lucky to have Barbra Rodriguez with us for an interview. We're going to be talking about how to accurately represent characters who have chronic health issues or health issues in general. And I am going to read her bio because she is super accomplished and we are so lucky to have her here. All right. Barbra Rodriguez is a certified book coach of fiction, memoir, and nonfiction through Author Accelerator.
She specializes in guiding authors to develop works that help readers engage more intentionally with life. She began her communications career writing for five years at a medical center about cancer care and research advances, and has won awards for freelance features about health and other topics. Barbra aced the UC San Diego Copy Editing Certificate Program, congrats, and has worked with six publishers on all stages of editing. With her vital wordplay coaching and editing business, she also helps indie authors of historical fiction, memoir, self-help and other nonfiction to unearth their book's focus and outline, to develop an engaging proposal or manuscript, and to prep to self-publish or pitch to agents. She also writes and edits for the Nature Conservancy and has helped update more than a dozen web modules for physicians in the past decade about topics like diagnosing and treating asthma, congenital heart disease, and vision disorders. So I think you are the perfect person to talk about how we write about health issues in fiction. I'm so excited for this conversation. All right.
Barbra (03:00)
Yeah, and thank you for having me, Olivia.
Olivia (03:02)
Yeah, of course. To start off, I would just love to know how you got interested in this topic. Why health conditions and why for fiction specifically.
Barbra (03:11)
Yeah. so I have been covering healthcare topics for decades, mostly as a writer, but in more recent years as an editor and then as a book coach. and that includes fact checking a book about how to age better physically. and what I've learned over time is just that it it can be easy to make errors in in what you say or write about regarding healthcare topics. And I would hate for writers to avoid covering them out of fear that they might get something wrong. In particular, you know, regardless of who you are, at some point in life you're gonna have some kind of health condition, you know, whether it's getting COVID for a couple of months or you develop a chronic illness. So most people either have or know people who have health conditions. And it's important to be able to normalize them as a part of our reality.
Olivia (04:14)
Yeah, I could not agree with you more. and I don't know if we've talked about this, but I was a teacher formerly. And I think as a teacher, you see so much behind the scenes of what students are going through and how there are students living with chronic illnesses of all kinds and who need, you know, just basic accommodations to access school equitably. And if
Barbra (04:36)
Mm-hmm.
Olivia (04:36)
you were someone who doesn't understand a health condition, like depression or, you know, something even physical. I think there are the teachers who get it and the teachers who don't. And I think it is so important to make sure we have more people in the get it category who understand that, you know, it's not faking. It's not trying to get out of something. It is a real
Condition that people are living with and even basic accessibility can help so much. And I think the more we represent things accurately, the more we can normalize that in our society. So I am so appreciative of the work you do and so excited to hear about how we can do this in our books. so
Barbra (05:11)
Sure.
Olivia (05:11)
I think the first question that I have is why is it so important for writers to get this right and not just take creative license and kind of make up whatever they want to about a condition? Because I think as writers, one of the things we get to do is make up worlds. So why is it so important to do this part accurately and not just fabricated?
Barbra (05:31)
Yeah, I'm I think there's two main reasons. one, it's a part of creating an authentic world for your readers. So if a reader has dyslexia or they have a si... brother who has it, and you present it in a way that doesn't ring true to them, that's gonna immediately pull them out of the story and get them questioning your authority over the material. and the other reason is just to avoid creating myths about health care conditions because, you know, someone could take information that you share and then go off and try it, or just, you know, misunderstand the realities of what it's like to live with something.
Olivia (06:18)
Yeah, and it's yeah, absolutely true. And I think so for someone who is trying to do this and trying to do it well, what do you see writers miss often when it comes to depicting health issues? Is there something that is like a common mistake?
Barbra (06:33)
Yeah. Well I think if you talk about the prep stage of developing a work, I think that a lot of writers don't realize how many resources there are out there.
Olivia (06:44)
Mm, mm.
Barbra (06:45)
you know, and for everything from websites that are meant for people who have just discovered that they have a condition to members of a community like the deaf community who are taking time out of their own life to teach others about what it's like to be deaf. And I think one of the main things I'd caution people about is to to always look at more than one resource. And the other thing they tend to miss out
Olivia (07:13)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (07:14)
on is be sure to get not only the medical perspective on things, but the perspective of those in a community with a condition because
Olivia (07:23)
mmhmm
Barbra (07:23)
they can have different experiences of what it what it's all about.
and then there's two other points, I guess, in the prep stage. when it you know, covering something like a serious illness can be heavy on the one hand, but on the other hand,
Olivia (07:43)
Mm.
Barbra (07:45)
it's also something that it's puts people in a situation where they're having to think about things like what what their identity is and what their future is like.
Olivia (07:54)
Yeah.
Barbra (07:56)
So it can be a Great way to add depth to a character, if you will, so there are positives to it in that sense. and the other thing is to keep in mind that people often are living full chunks of their lives that are perfectly normal, and so it's important to show when you're when you're dealing with a character that isn't a minor character, it's important to show them as having a depth of experiences
Olivia (08:28)
Yeah.
Barbra (08:28)
and not be just about that illness in terms of what you write about them. Yeah.
Olivia (08:32)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's so true. I was just thinking of when you were saying, you know, you need to find the medical perspective but also the real lived experience. And I think
It there's such a difference between the two. And I I know you one of your specialties is historical fiction. and I've also worked with a lot of historical fiction writers and I so often tell people there's the tech textbook version and then there's the version that people lived. And your job writing fiction is to bring that history to life. You cannot have characters
Barbra (09:05)
Exactly.
Olivia (09:06)
reciting a textbook at each other. You know, that is not how people think. So and I think it's the same the same is true here. So
Yeah, so do you have any is any tips for where would someone are there any particular favorite resources? And you mentioned a couple, things like that, the things like the website where people are teaching people what it's like to be deaf and things like that. Do you have any particular kind of specific websites that come to mind that you think are really helpful or high quality?
Barbra (09:36)
Yeah,
yeah. I think that there are websites that are well known. For example, Harvard has a Harvard Health Letter where there are physicians that
Olivia (09:44)
Mm, mm.
Barbra (09:45)
actually write the articles. and the Mayo Clinic, for example, has some good content. and then when it comes to communities, I I know for example about a website That allows people to writers to post information and say, does this seem realistic
Olivia (10:08)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (10:11)
to people in that community? And beta readers are another source. You can go to beta readers
Olivia (10:13)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Barbra (10:16)
and ask for a beta reader. There are sites that you can pay and you can
Olivia (10:21)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (10:21)
try to find a beta reader that is from that community, but also be sure
Olivia (10:25)
Yeah I'm
Barbra (10:26)
that they share. what how their perspective fits into the context of the overall community because there can be differences in how people view things. Just
Olivia (10:33)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Barbra (10:38)
I know I sometimes work as a sensitivity reader. And as a sensitivity reader,
Olivia (10:42)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (10:44)
if I were to get a book and that it was about a first generation Latino in a in the US, well
Olivia (10:50)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (10:50)
I don't have that experience I you know. So being careful about how you represent yourself as a beta reader or, learning where their where their point of
Olivia (10:58)
Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Barbra (11:01)
view comes from.
Olivia (11:03)
Yeah. It's very important. I think if you are, you know, looking for a sensitivity reader, which I'm sure you can find for various health issues, make sure you're paying them. We are not asking people from already marginalized communities to do unpaid work. you know, you might have a friend who is willing to help out, but I would say definitely make sure you are are paying your sensitivity readers because that is work and can especially be heavy work. that we want people to do willingly. Okay.
Barbra (11:29)
Mm-hmm.
Olivia (11:30)
I think so then moving on from the prep phase, now that we are writing on the page, what are things that people need to look out for as they're actually kind of crafting the narrative?
Barbra (11:43)
Yeah, well, so one of the main things would be, you know, I would say it's important to think about the cultural perspective of things and particularly for something with like historical novels. how people talked about something like if you got a torn knee ligament, it would used to be called a trick knee back in the day. So paying
Olivia (12:07)
Mm.
Barbra (12:08)
attention to those kind of language differences and also the context. of the language in terms of what the beliefs were at that point in time.
Olivia (12:16)
Mm.
Barbra (12:16)
Every culture has beliefs about how things are supposed to operate. And even even in the US, for example, a friend of mine who is blind went through an acupuncture school in the United States where they f they made her, I believe it was the state of Texas, made her be supervised for her final exam. And also
Olivia (12:42)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (12:42)
have supervision anytime she was with a with a client for a number of years. And in
Olivia (12:48)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (12:49)
Japan, for example, there's a tradition of having acupuncturists who are blind. There's an understanding that
Olivia (12:55)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (12:57)
when people are blind, they have actually heightened sensitivity in other senses
Olivia (13:00)
Mm. Yeah.
Barbra (13:03)
that that ties into that. And so,
Olivia (13:05)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (13:06)
you know, it's important to get cultural context onto the page when it's appropriate. And maybe that's all you'll do in terms of covering a health topic. The other
Olivia (13:13)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Barbra (13:15)
main thing is to to be careful about not othering characters by the language you use real and talking about them. So for example,
Olivia (13:20)
Mm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Barbra (13:24)
if someone is partially blind, some people might want to say that they're visually impaired, but the word impaired
Olivia (13:33)
Mm.
Barbra (13:34)
suggests a deficit and in their mind,
Olivia (13:36)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Barbra (13:37)
you know Maybe they've been partially blind all their life, so that's all they know. So
Olivia (13:41)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Barbra (13:43)
so using low vision would be another way to talk about that.
Olivia (13:48)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (13:50)
and there's there's you know there's definitely nuances to this all. So
Olivia (13:55)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (13:56)
some people in a community will prefer person-first language, like you say, a student students who are deaf. Other people
Olivia (14:01)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Barbra (14:04)
will prefer identity first language.
Olivia (14:07)
Hmm.
Barbra (14:08)
such as saying deaf students and the the deaf community in particular, there tends to be a strong sense of identity. And some the same can be true of someone who we would call overweight. Medical community might
Olivia (14:23)
Yeah.
Barbra (14:23)
say this person is obese or this person is
Olivia (14:26)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (14:27)
morbidly obese. They may actually choose to take on the term fat and prefer that
Olivia (14:32)
Mm.
Barbra (14:33)
because they want to destigmatize that term. And so that's why
Olivia (14:38)
Yeah.
Barbra (14:38)
I say it's important not to just look at medical resources and potentially interview somebody who's an expert on on the care of someone with a condition, but to also
Olivia (14:51)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (14:51)
talk to folks in the community. And and then there are also style guides that can you you can use as a starting point for understanding what terms are less popular now because they've been used as slurs for a long period of time.
Olivia (15:07)
Yeah.
I think that is yeah, just really underscores the importance of research because coming from the education world, we have definitely been taught that it's person first language and that is the way to go. That's what you do. and clearly that is not universally true. And I think you know, so I think it really is important to
Do your research. and also don't assume that just because something was the term that it still is, because things I think are always evolving as we're having
Barbra (15:34)
Yes.
Olivia (15:35)
those conversations, and that's important to yeah, stay up to date. which I think actually I'm gonna skip ahead in our our list of questions because I think this is a perfect tie-in that I think because things evolve for historical fiction writers specifically, how do we balance
Accurately representing the history of misunderstanding and often you know real prejudice against people who had certain health conditions versus the modern understanding that we have now. And what came to mind for me is the fifth Bridgerton book, which I am blinking on the title, which I should have written down, but I believe it's to Sir Philip with Love is book five, and that's
Barbra (16:19)
Yeah.
Olivia (16:19)
the Eloise book. in the main male character, his former wife, has passed away. And we don't never meet her really on the page, but in the way that she's described and the way that she's talked about, it seems very evident that this character was depressed for their whole life and then has taken their own life. That's the the implication. We never really know a hundred percent for sure, but it is heavily, heavily implied. and the characters throughout the book kind of refer to this person as very frigid and cold and just unloving.
And, as someone who has suffered from depression and think of, medication, now that we have it, has helped. you know, I saw it as is a very
cruel characterization of a person suffering from a mental health problem. But at the same time, I thought that it was also very historically accurate. So how do we kind of yeah handle that tension between we have believed the wrong things for a long time. Some of our understandings of diseases are just changing now.
So as a historical fiction writer, we wanna be accurate, but we also wanna be sensitive that we don't believe the same things that we used to believe about depression and that's a good thing, but not true of history.
Barbra (17:33)
Yeah, I I I that's a great question. And I think the it's a question that historical fiction authors deal with in general with their works. there's
Olivia (17:43)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (17:44)
always the challenge of historical accuracy versus connecting to contemporary readers. And so the the medical aspects or the health aspects are just an aspect of that. and I think that the truth is that there isn't a
a right answer, but that because some readers are gonna just be, you know, historical accuracy lovers and others are just gonna be like, you took me out of the story because it it hurt me to see somebody treated that way, which is a very
Olivia (18:17)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (18:18)
human emotion. So I think you have to really look at, you know, what's important to you personally, and then weigh the pros and cons of both approaches. So in terms
Olivia (18:28)
Mm. Yeah.
Barbra (18:30)
Of Presenting historical accuracy, one of the things that that can do is provide people with context for how far we've we've gotten or how far we haven't, right? So it provides you with a context for where we are now when you see
Olivia (18:47)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (18:48)
something represented differently in the past. And the other thing is in a general sense, it can give you a sense of the value of being open-minded. regardless of
Olivia (19:00)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (19:01)
you know what your beliefs are, being open to people and listening to them.
Olivia (19:03)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Barbra (19:05)
So there's that side of it. and you can kind of circumvent this. So so for that I haven't seen that book or or seen that all the movies I've I've seen the first two.
Olivia (19:18)
Mm.
Barbra (19:19)
but I don't know if they did this in but perhaps for that male character, the husband.
Perhaps they used other ways to show that he was generous of spirit, like to his brother or something. So there's a way you
Olivia (19:32)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Barbra (19:34)
can still be historically accurate, but try
Olivia (19:37)
Yeah.
Barbra (19:38)
not to villainize that character so much that the reader totally
Olivia (19:41)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Barbra (19:42)
disconnects from them. Or
Olivia (19:44)
Yeah.
Barbra (19:44)
the all the alternative is to create a character that isn't of their time and they just don't go along with the beliefs of that time.
Olivia (19:52)
Mm-hmm, mm hmm, yeah.
Barbra (19:56)
so that's another option is to create that unicorn character, if you will. So
Olivia (20:01)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah. I think I mean it's definitely tricky because yeah, you do have those kind of two sides. And I think, you know, for me, I did finish the book. I would say it's probably my least favorite of the series, but I didn't, you know, throw it across the room or anything because again, I was saying it's historically accurate. I could accept that.
I think, I think there are o other tools potentially that could have been employed, maybe an author's note or something like that. I think that book also came out in the very early two thousands. So I think at that point, culturally, our our understanding of depression was still evolving as well. So we've come so far in just the last few decades, I think. you know, being much more open talking about mental health and I think,
Yeah,
so we definitely I think there is a tension there. And sometimes that unicorn character who's outside their time fits and sometimes it doesn't. So I think you know, adding an author's note potentially could be a way to kind of get around that where we say, This is striving to be historically accurate, but at the same time, you know, this is this is what's going on now. which I think is, you know, potentially a way around it. I think, you know
You can also choose to have the characters who have those horrible views not be your good characters, or something like that, where maybe
Barbra (21:19)
Mm-hmm.
Olivia (21:19)
your main characters are not perfect, they're not completely outside their time, but I think there have always been people around us who are more sensitive. I mean, we look at the history of race, which is, you know, something I often think about in this context, that, you know, sometimes
Barbra (21:34)
Mm-hmm.
Olivia (21:34)
there's this myth that in the past everyone was super racist, but there were always people fighting against it in various
Barbra (21:41)
Mm-hmm.
Olivia (21:42)
Ways throughout history. So it is equally accurate to have the person who says, like, actually, we don't have to be rude to this person. Actually, maybe that person was trying their best and just, you know, they were sad a lot and it wasn't their fault. so I think there's definitely,
Barbra (21:55)
Mm-hmm.
Olivia (21:56)
you know, room to adjust. it will be interesting. The the show has not yet caught up to book five, but they've already made changes to that character. So I am curious to see what they do with Eloise's story because they've already changed that character completely.
So yeah, so because she shows up in the first season, not as as the version who has died. So we will see what they do with that. but I think they've already
Barbra (22:19)
Yes.
Olivia (22:20)
decided not to go down that path, probably for the very obvious reason that I think a book could get away with something in two thousand two that a show definitely cannot get away with in, you know, twenty twenty seven. Probably it'll be by the time it comes out. So
Barbra (22:33)
Mm-hmm.
Olivia (22:34)
yeah, that'll be interesting to see.
Barbra (22:36)
Yeah. Yeah. And I appreciate you sharing those other ways of working with it because those
Olivia (22:41
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (22:41)
are great ideas.
Olivia (22:43)
Yeah, there's definitely it's not one size fits all. And we are not trying to say that you need to make your book inaccurate, just for the purpose of being sensitive, but there are ways to be sensitive and accurate at the same time.
Barbra (22:54)
Mm-hmm.
Olivia (22:55)
yeah. All right. okay, so then kind of on that topic, are there any books that you've come across that you think are just the example of what not to do that we should avoid?
Barbra (23:08)
there is sort of a category of books in general that use medical content more for drama, and murder mysteries are can be one of those areas. there's also books that are, you know, about, you know, just treating medical establishments as a villain, if you will, but that's a separate
Olivia (23:36)
Mm, mm.
Barbra (23:37)
Separate area, but an example book in terms of the murder mysteries is The Maidens,
Olivia (23:42)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (23:43)
is one that I've looked at recently. and is by a fairly new author, I believe. And just the depth of the characters in general is not great. There's a group therapist who is the protagonist, and she ends up trying to help solve some mis Some murder mysteries because it
Olivia (24:06)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (24:07)
relates to somebody that she cares about and the death of her
Olivia (24:11)
Yeah.
Barbra (24:11)
best friend. And basically, not only is the person who committed the murders kind of presented in this very sort of undeveloped way, but
Olivia (24:26)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (24:27)
there's like a a client of the group therapist who is only on the pages to harass her and to raise tension. And he
Olivia (24:35)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Barbra (24:36)
he self-harms himself and she just tells him to leave her house
Olivia (24:40)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (24:40)
and go away. She doesn't do things ethically that you would expect a group therapist to do. and
Olivia (24:42)
Yeah, mm, mm.
Barbra (24:46)
the same kind of comp concerns were, yeah, I should say this book got four out of five stars. So many readers reacted well to it, but there are others
Olivia (24:56)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (24:57)
that called him out on that and his previous book,
Olivia (25:00)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (25:00)
which is a bestseller, had even worse characterizations of medical professionals doing things that weren't professional and turning a mental illness or a mental health concern into a tool to move the story along.
Olivia (25:21)
Yeah, that's interesting because I had read The Silent Page and I have not read The Maidens, but I think Yeah, it's so interesting because I think I'm trying to say this without spoilers and it's very hard. the yeah it is a very interesting characterization of the medical profession and
I think there is an interesting question of, is it okay to have one character within that profession who is unethical, and not doing the right thing? Because, it happens in every profession. where's the line of, we're using this one character versus we're critiquing the whole system in a way that is maybe unfair?
and I definitely have all that tension with education as well, because I think anyone who has actually worked in a school knows that the kind of popular imagination and the reality can be very different of what
Barbra (26:12)
Yes.
Olivia (26:13)
teachers are actually doing behind the scenes, what our actual professional obligations are. so yeah, so this is an interesting, because I think looking back on that book, which I read just for fun a while ago when it came out.I
Barbra (26:26)
Mm-hmm.
Olivia (26:26)
was not necessarily thinking or critiquing, you know, how he's actually using mental health and the system. And looking back, I think there are definitely aspects that you know definitely, there are other, you know, it a lot of the story takes place in a mental health treatment facility, but the
Barbra (26:49)
Mm-hmm.
Olivia (26:50)
Pa other patients aren't really treated like people now that I'm looking back and thinking about it. And I think, to your point of just using this character as kind of the the default scary guy because, you know, they have a mental health concern.
That thought process, I think, is is we all accept it because that stigma is so normalized that of course this person is scary. There doesn't need to be any other aspect of his characterization to make him scary. and if we keep leaning on that trope, if we keep leaning on that, we will keep perpetuating that stereotype and that stigma. So I think even if
Barbra (27:26)
Mm-hmm.
Olivia (27:27)
it seems harmless, it seems that you're just borrowing from the past. Other people have done it, you can do it too. you know, I think I've I've talked about this before.
Previous episode that was more focused on world-building tropes. But you know, just because authors have done it in the past doesn't make it right and doesn't mean that you are excused. Once you know better, we do better. so yeah, so I think that's such a
Barbra (27:47)
Mm-hmm.
Olivia (27:47)
good point of really, you know, every single character in your book needs to have depth. And if you're gonna make someone bad, make them bad because of their motivations and their character and their backstory, not just because they have insert health issue here that we already interpret as scary. You know, do do better than that because.
that is there's no effort there to just say this person is scary because of your reader's stereotypes. That requires nothing from you as the author. And
Barbra (28:13)
Mm-hmm.
Olivia (28:14)
we can do better.
Barbra (28:15)
Yeah, definitely.
Olivia (28:21)
all right, and then I would love to also hear on the flip side if you have any examples of authors who are doing this well, who are representing health conditions in an accurate way, who are really trying to make sure that they are treating their characters fairly. I would love to have some, you know, positive examples that people can go out and study.
Barbra (28:38)
Sure. well I I have to admit I haven't read his books, but one author that I've heard good things about is DJ Palmer. He's written a couple of
Olivia (28:47)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (28:47)
books. and to to be fair, he's also in the murder mystery kind of area, and he's using
Olivia (28:53)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Barbra (28:57)
a person's illness as the story driver. So there are some that will object to that, which is understandable.
Olivia (29:02)
Mm, mm.
Barbra (29:05)
But there's a book called The Perfect Daughter where the
Olivia (29:08)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (29:10)
the daughter has what used to be called multiple personality disorder.
Olivia (29:13)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Barbra (29:16)
and she's been accused of murder. but he's been noted for doing a really good job of covering like how you would accurately depict the different different
Olivia (29:29)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Barbra (29:30)
sort of personalities that that
Olivia (29:33)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (29:34)
Are a part of her persona and other health-related
Olivia (29:37)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Barbra (29:39)
factors. And then in the historical fiction space, there there's a nurse who's written a couple of books about just how healthcare was approached in previous times. Amanda Skinandor, I think is how you pronounce her name.
Olivia (29:57)
Mm, mm hmm.
Barbra (30:00)
So she's got a book called The Nurses Secret. that I've read that's
Olivia (30:03)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (30:03)
about the time in the early late eighteen hundreds when the germ theory of disease was just coming around. and so
Olivia (30:13)
Mm, mm, yeah.
Barbra (30:15)
some of the tensions in the book, which takes place in a nurse's training facility, are about doctors arguing about
Olivia (30:22)
Mm, mm-hmm.
Barbra (30:22)
whether or not they should do anything before they stick their hands into
Olivia (30:26)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (30:26)
a patient's body during surgery, that kind of thing. Right. And she's done another
Olivia (30:31)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (30:32)
book about to shine a light on Hansen's disease, which used to be called leprosy.
Olivia (30:38)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (30:41)
and she uses a fake, you know, a made-up character who has who is in Hollywood and is the wife of a famous
Olivia (30:49)
Yeah.
Barbra (30:50)
star. And she develops Hanson's disease and she has to go to a facility, and she basically has to rebuild her
Olivia (30:57)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (30:57)
life from scratch because of
Olivia (31:00)
Yeah, mm hmm.
Barbra (31:01)
how
people with this disease were treated back then. So
Olivia (31:04)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (31:05)
she's she's got some good works. one of
Olivia (31:08)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (31:08)
them as an overall model to consider would be a follow-up book to the little women. I don't know if you read
Olivia (31:15)
Mm.
Barbra (31:16)
that. I haven't read it, but I've seen some of the movie series or the TV series on it.
Olivia (31:20)
Mm. Ya, mhm.
Barbra (31:23)
Okay. There's a book called The Other March Sisters that was written by three
Olivia (31:26)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (31:27)
authors. One of the sisters Is named Beth, and she had
Olivia (31:32)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (31:32)
scar scarlet fever, which nowadays
Olivia (31:34)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Barbra (31:35)
we know as untreated strep throat. She basically had a bacterial infection, but they didn't know how to take care of it back then.
Olivia (31:42)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (31:43)
And so in the original book, she dies from scarlet
Olivia (31:46)
Yeah.
Barbra (31:47)
fever. and in the follow-up book, The Other March Sister, her six or so chapters are showing
Olivia (31:56)
Yeah.
Barbra (31:57)
Her. struggling with her identity and thinking about the future
Olivia (32:00)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (32:02)
and really getting into what it's like to have this long term illness. And
Olivia (32:05)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Barbra (32:07)
but it also shows her developing a positive new relationship. and as part of that positive new relationship, she falls in love with this person. And it's a non-traditional romantic relationship. So that's a
Olivia (32:22)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (32:23)
way that even though the author covered health, they cover the fact that she was on
Olivia (32:28)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (32:28)
taking belladonna, which would have been,
Olivia (32:31)
Yeah.
Barbra (32:31)
it's a poisonous plant, but
Olivia (32:34)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (32:34)
at low doses, it was used as a medication back then.
Olivia (32:37)
Yeah.
Barbra (32:37)
So even though she covers the traditional aspect, she contemporizes this particular part of the book by giving her
Olivia (32:41)
Mm. Yeah.
Barbra (32:45)
a non-traditional romantic relationship. So that's another one. Yeah.
Olivia (32:47)
Yeah. Yeah. So interesting.
Yeah, no, that is actually fascinating. I never knew that scarlet fever was strep throat untreated. And it makes me so glad that I was born when I was because I had strep throat like three times in a row and thankfully got antibiotics and not scarlet fever. So okay. Learn something new every day. All right, awesome.
Barbra (33:09)
Yeah.
Olivia (33:09)
Okay. all right, so now I've got a couple of questions that are my
This is the first interview I've done for this podcast, but I am dubbing these the official podcast questions for this show. so what does it mean to you to be a better writer?
Barbra (33:25)
Yeah, to to me being a better writer is being intentional about how you approach portraying the world around you and also, you know, about exploring your own thoughts and doing that, taking yourself seriously and learning how to grow from the experience of writing and and also being willing to lean into unfamiliar territory because
Writing can be used as a way to explore your world. and so I I see covering health topics if that's not something that you naturally would lean into as one potential way of doing that. It's obviously not the only way, but it can be a good tool for doing that. And you know, you're gonna make mistakes. Chances are there's something that I said or that you said in terms of using language about health. in the even in this conversation that might not have been the best way to put it, but people deserve an opportunity to have the grace to get things wrong a bit too. And and for those in a community that have the energy and the desire to help people learn, you know, then then they can provide some guidance on on what we could do better. so,
Olivia (34:50)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Barbra (34:53)
you know, if you think about novels in the past, an example is The
Olivia (34:58)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (34:59)
Secret Garden, which got made into a movie in
Olivia (35:01)
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Barbra (35:03)
the in the early nineties, I think it was. The original book you do? Okay, so you've seen that one too.
Olivia (35:06)
I remember that. I remember reading it, yeah. Ver like goodness, I think I read it in like second grade and I still remember it.
Barbra (35:13)
Okay. Okay, good. Well so there's a character in the book, I can't remember his name is Danny or something like that. And he is bed bedridden. He's basically
Olivia (35:22)
I do not remember. Mm-hmm.
Barbra (35:25)
doesn't get out of bed much.
Olivia (35:27)
Yeah.
Barbra (35:28)
and my understanding is through by the end of the book, by visiting the garden and so on, and by positive
Olivia (35:35)
Mm.
Barbra (35:36)
thinking, he gets cured and he no longer has to stay in bed. And
Olivia (35:39)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Barbra (35:43)
the book was written in the early nineteen hundreds. So the idea that you can just think yourself better was probably
Olivia (35:50)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (35:51)
more accepted back then just because people people were struggling with how to how to deal with things that they didn't understand. and in in today's context that wouldn't fly. but just there's an author that I admire, Sherri Smith. who who said, whatever you write, eventually somebody's gonna critique it because and I assume that she her point with saying that is that cultures change and so the context of what
Olivia (36:20)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (36:21)
we say changes. So you're gonna run into challenges no matter what you write. So why not stretch yourself in the process?
Olivia (36:26)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and I think that's so important because I don't want anyone to walk away from this thinking I am not confident that I can research correctly. I'm not confident that I can get it all right. So I'm just not going to ever have any kind of, you know, diversity in terms of ability or health condition in my novels. And that is not the takeaway that I want you to have. I think, you know, do your best to represent everything accurately. Do that research, you know, to the extent that you can. Make sure you are taking into account Both the medical version and the lived experience. but don't shy away from representing the diversity of our world just because you're
Barbra (37:10)
Mm-hmm.
Olivia (37:10)
afraid you might get it wrong. Obviously, again, we want to do the work, make sure we are reaching out to people in that community, especially a sensitivity reader. If you're really trying to represent someone's lived experience, we definitely want to have some eyes on that that are not just our own and we're not just referencing our own biases, but that doesn't mean don't do it, because there are authors out there who are getting it right. both people who have health conditions. I was just thinking about Fourth Wing, and Ellers Domlo, which I'm not a hundred percent sure I'm pronouncing that correctly, but I know, you know, it's something that the author herself lives with, and you know, she was able to use that to represent it beautifully and still create a character who's a superhero of guideless. but you don't necessarily need to have that lived experience to justify, you know, creating a character who has a condition or, you know, has
Barbra (38:01)
Mm-hmm.
Olivia (38:02)
a health issue of sure you're doing your research obviously if you don't have your own lived experience to lean on you will have to do more research but i don't want you to think that you cannot just because you are not suffering from that same condition so yeah so thank you and also for giving us some resources that we can use all right okay
Barbra (38:20)
sure.
Olivia (38:21)
yeah all right so then for someone listening to this episode what is the one thing that you want them to take action on after listening
Barbra (38:31)
Well, I think that trying to be related to that courage and sort of learning to see the world from different perspectives. Look at your own bookshelf and see if there's ways that you can diversify what you're reading. I think is a big
Olivia (38:53)
Mm.
Barbra (38:54)
step that's important. and it could be, you know, it could be that you're already Doing diverse readings in some areas, but not others. And so that could be
Olivia (39:04)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (39:05)
looking at disability-related content. it could be even looking at genre that you wouldn't even think of reading otherwise. So, for example, I started looking at some graphic memoir recently and didn't realize I sort of had a prejudice and assumption that it would be s simplified storytelling when in fact, for example, some
graphic memoirists will write out what they're going to put into the cartoon space. Cartoon is the wrong word, but anyway, put into cells. and they'll write it out first because they need
Olivia (39:36)
Mm, mhm, mhm, yeah.
Barbra (39:43)
to simplify things down and make it actually
Olivia (39:46)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (39:47)
simpler story and the the work behind all
Olivia (39:49)
Yeah.
Barbra (39:49)
of that. So anyway, just diversify your bookshelf.
Olivia (39:52)
Mm-hmm. Yes, absolutely. Because I think that will change your perspective so much just by even if it's fiction, because yeah, read diversely. All right. Okay. So then final question. Where should people go to learn more about you and your work?
Barbra (40:08)
Yeah, so I have a website, vitalwordplay.com, and that's where I work with nonfiction, fiction, and memoir authors. Historical fiction is my focus for fiction. and then I'll be providing for for you to share with your readers a link to resources that they can download if they want a ar
Olivia (40:35)
Pasan.
Barbra (40:35)
a variety of both medically oriented and community
Olivia (40:38)
Mm-hmm.
Barbra (40:39)
oriented resources that they can turn to and also how to judge a website for whether or not it's likely to
Olivia (40:45)
Mm.
Barbra (40:46)
have the kind of content that you want.
Olivia (40:50)
that's so helpful. Thank you so much. I will be excited to check that out myself. So, okay. Everyone, if you're a historical fiction writer or not, if you're trying to represent characters accurately with various health conditions, check out those resources. We will link it in the show notes. so you can do your research accurately, effectively.
All right, thank you so much, Barbra. It has been so wonderful to talk to you and just yeah, hear
Barbra (41:12)
You too.
Olivia (41:12)
more about how to represent characters accurately. It is something that is very near and dear to my heart. So it is wonderful to have you on the show to help us all become better writers.
Barbra (41:22)
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
Olivia (41:25)
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Better Writer Podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, go check out Barbra and her work. She's an amazing book coach and she has a great resource that is going to help you write characters who have health issues sensitively and accurately. And that is something that we should all be striving for.
And if you learned something from this episode, please share with a friend who needs it too. I want to reach as many writers as possible, and you can help me do that just by hitting the share button. All right, thank you again for listening to this episode. Have a wonderful week. Keep writing. Keep getting better. One word at a time. See ya.
